Hey all, who do you guys think is the most effective female server of all-time?  Martina keeps coming to mind, but really I'm not sure -

As far as todays game, it has to be the Williamses - perhaps Serena and Venus are the best of all-time as well? 

Also, we are now seeing matches where the women hold sometimes less than 50% of the time - have the percentages of holding ever been so low in the open era? 

 

 Lots of players have had great first serves - Serena, Venus, Martina, Davenport, Schultz-McCarthy just to name a few but Serena stands alone with the best first and second serve. Venus may hold the record,but her second serve doesn't compare to Serena.

Serena

Navratilova

Graf

Francoise Durr (kidding!!...then again for the slowest serve ever, she placed it well, and won a lot of matches!)

Is it because she lost to Bobby Riggs that Margaret Court (with better numbers than everyone on the list) never makes it into these discussions?

Serena is the best server of the women I've seen in person.

Never saw Margaret Court in person but have seen her in video and players who faced her say she had a tremendous serve. Certainly Venus - her first serve is obviously so much bigger than her second, in fact during Stanford Brad Gilbert said he could not recall another woman in history who had such a (speed) disparity between her first and second serves - has to be right near the top as she generally serves flatter than Serena. 

Agree with Graf and Navratilova, who were both excellent on serve. And I think you've got to put Brenda Schultz-McCarthy up there because she not only has hit some of the fastest serves in history, she also has a tremendous kick serve which many women do not have (Kuznetsova has a good kick, Serena, Sam Stosur, Snyder has a kick serve, etc.). Kuznetsova is a confidence server - when she feels really confident she can put the serve almost anywhere in the box with variety, but then other times she just spins it in not even going for much angle. I remember her having some good serving days the year she won the Open. I would take her serve over any of the Russian women (realize Sharapova's serve was dominant as well but since the shoulder surgery, while she's gotten better post-Open, still nto nearly as consistent as Kuznetsova).

A player who sometimes gets overlooked is Davenport. When Davenport's serve was on and she was confident, have seen her string together love holds so easily against top women. She could get tight in big spots (I know that feeling well myself) but when she was loose and letting it fly Davenport had a dominant serve. Asked Seles, one of the best returners of all time, who had the best serve of all time. She said there were several and could not pick one but did mention Davenport and the Williams sisters. Capriati, another exceptional returner, has also said Williams sisters were the toughest - especially Venus on grass.

A friend of mine was a big Claudia Khode-Kilsch fan and Sukova could serve big too. One player - not nearly in the class of the elite servers, but who I always felt was an underrated server was Sandrine Testud. Saw her give Hingis a tough match at MSG one year at the year-end championships and she was serving beautifully that entire match. She had a smooth motion and really went up after the toss.

Graf had great timing on her serve and always seem to time that wrist snap perfectly. I liked watching Graf on serve because she played quickly, always liked the players who don't waste time, just get the ball and go and she was that way. Clijsters plays quickly, Agassi and Capriati both played really quickly so did Newcombe.

For women under 5-foot-6, Justine Henin had a really good serve with variety and she's a player who has modified her motion over the years and reportedly is doing that now in preparing for her comeback so will be interesting to see how her serve looks when she comes back. Sharapova went to the modified motion then went back to her more traditional loop backswing.

I like Terabid's assessment.  Serena knows how to hold serve and can get the second in play.  Venus generates most pure power.

I never liked Graf's high toss.  Roscoe hit it at the peak and Mac also hit it very near the peak, Rafa has lowered his toss in the last year.

 BJKing had very nice fluidity when I saw an old replay of her final Vs Chrissie.  BJK definitely should have an honorable mention.

If what John Newcombe says is true, a player is only as good as his (or her) second serve, then it's hands down Serena Williams.

I am not surprised RP who always loved Gabriella Sabatini didn't bring her into the conversation.  I would nominate her for worst second serve of all time in the womens pro game.  very nice assessment of the Williams!!!  They should also be noted for their great support group/family, IMO it matters and is sometimes overlooked, eg Fed, Rafa, Novak, Roddick, Blake, Sampras etc.  Hingis, Murray.

 

Smoking:

   It's not a coincidence two of my all-time favorites: Sabatini and Hingis, had mediocre serves. I relate to players who are serve-challenged as my serve stinks.

   Another reason I favor Serena is it's one thing having a great serve, it's a completely different story being able to serve big in major matches or when a match is on the line. She has proven herself to be a tremendous situational server - being able to pull out the service winner or ace when she needs it most. That's very, very rare in women's tennis - especially now. And she's the best at it.

   I remember Fred Stolle saying once he felt the best strokes in tennis history were often the simplest because little can go wrong when there is no wasted movement. I feel that way about Serena's serve. People used to say she didn't use her legs, which are so strong, as well as she can but I think when she's serving well she really does power up on her legs, she has a near flawless toss, great snap. When she's on she hits that sharp angle on the deuce side so well that you have to move over to protect it, then she'll hammer the flatter one down the middle. That was the McEnroe tactic - ont he ad side - he'd swing you wide on the ad side for an entire set to open the court with the volley then, on a big point, when you were leaning to the ad side, he's bring the slider down the middle. Very tough to deal with someone who can hit the angle with pace like Serena can.

   Years back the Williams family did a DVD and one of the things they showed was how they warm-up for serving by soft tossing the football (they also throw old racquets around the backyard to get that feel of throwing the racquet up and out on the ball). Serena can throw a football better than I can and grew up playing catch with a football so very impressed with her arm. She throws a football like a guy. Like when she threw out the first pitch at Yankee stadium and nearly put it over the backstop - was not surprised as I remember being really impressed with how well she could throw a football.

I will add one player to the list of great and even underrated  women servers.  Monica Seles!  In the 1993 AO final against Graf, she out-aced and out-serviced winner her.  This was the pre-stabbed 19 year old Monica.  Her service speed became greater than Graf's in 1993.  And add to the fact she is left-handed, it was a deadly combination.  Obviously, she never reached the peak of her natural gifts, but that 1993 final in Melbourne was a potential sign of great things to come.  What we saw was still exceptional. 

Seles is a good call, I think.  I wish there were more numbers available as to what results they each got with their serves.  I always thought Seles served pretty nasty, like an old-school tricky lefty.  

RP must be right about Schnyders kick serve.  She is one of only 3 ladies who have won more than 50% of their second serve points on tour this year (Kuznetsova and Wozniacki the others).   

Great info from everyone.  Graf, Davenport, the Williamses (who are currently 1 and 2 on tour in terms of service games won and first serve points won for '09).

Zvonareva and Wozniacki have both had success this year (winning 75% of their service games).  I don't know if either can serve the big points that well, but it does say something about their serves, right?   

FC:

   Zvonareva has definitely improved her serve from her early years on the Tour. I think a big reason both she and Wozniacki hold serve with that frequency is both are extremely quick, both defend well, so Wozniacki is often able to get away with short serves in the box because she moves so well she can recover off a penetrating return and can get the rally back to neutral. Wozniacki is taller than Vera Z (she is about 5-10) and has a good reach so hopefully she will be able to develop a bigger serve as she matures and fills out a bit. She's already No. 4 in the world with a serve that is not very imposing so if she can pick that up she's obviously got a fantastic future.

   Of the younger players (20 or under) the one whose serve strikes me as a real potential weapon is Sabine Lisicki. She can really bang some big serves and she is (usually) unafraid to just let it rip and go for it, which can be a positive and a negative. I think as she learns to control it a bit more and serve according to the score a bit better she will get even better. She's a strong girl and I remember watching her win Charleston and she was serving pretty big there (on clay) and generating a lot of free service points. She has very strong legs too and uses them well on serve.

  Another good server who is mounting a comeback is Alicia Molik. I like Stosur's serve a lot too - she can get tight though and then it goes on her - but when she's relaxed she has very good variety, placement, etc. 

Serena's second serve makes her first serve seem even better. And when she's on, it's such a tough serve to read and return.

 

Pace, like Schultz had, is good, but if Schultz's serve was better, she would have won more matches.

 

Navratilova's lefty spin serve gave everyone fits. And one good serving day from Monica doesn't mean she had a great serve.  She didn't.  Like I said Francoise Durr had the slowest serve ever recorded in pro tennis. Yet she beat #4 ranked Martina Navratilova in 1976 Palm Springs 61,61!

And one good serving day from Monica doesn't mean she had a great serve.  She didn't.

That so-called one good serving day was not the early round match of a grand slam.  It was the finals of the AO 1993, a match she entered because she won 6 consecutive matches prior.  She won those 6 matches because of her great serving, playing ability, etc.  She won 8 other slams and 3 Year-End Championships, and having a great serve to win that many slams and other titles  in the 1990's is a must.  She did not have just one great serving day.  She had a career serving, returning, and playing well even if it was only for a short time period.  

Ultimately, Monica's serve is not in the same league as Serena's.  No one's is.  Certainly not even Graf.  Martina Navratilova is probably the closest.  

I've been paying pretty close attention to Doha, and Serena is generating free points, winners, and short balls from her serve.  Venus and Kuzi are effective, but are nowhere near as effective as Serena.  She is really hammering the aces down the T and she is also mixing it up, and her kick serve for the 2nd is no slouch either. 

Dementieva said she felt like she was facing Andy Roddick when she lost to her in Wimbledon,and I can see why.  It is really tough to beat her unless she serves poorly. 

If the other girls had this ability they would be far more consistent at the top.  It may be impossible for them, given that Serena is just a stronger athlete.  That being said, they can all improve. 

Wozniacki, Azarenka, and Safina, and Jankovic all have incredible return games - if they could find a way to hold even a little more, they would have more easy matches.